土耳其人会遗憾奥斯曼帝国的垮台吗?

Cem Arslan
, Turkish, born and bred
The Ottoman Empire is a strange construct in Turkish mindset.
As with any state that has seen its fall from the world’s undisputed superpower to a regional power at best, and didn’t get its national identity erased from existence along the way, to claim that Turkey and Turks do not feel any sort of nostalgia for the august majesty of their Imperial past would be simply wrong.
However, a critical subject to examine whenever the matter at hand is about a past entity is precisely what any present nostalgia desires the return of.
The Ottoman Empire was a great but stagnant construct, that first found itself an entity markedly ahead of its time, yet then failing to change as times passed by and when measures were finally taken to salvage the Porte it was too late. However even to its last day it carried a certain august prestige of a venerable past, to not even speak of the world-quaking might of its heyday, the first true superpower of Europe and the Near East since more than seven centuries. Regret over its passing is something prent in every Turk, and nostalgia as well, but it is not the Ottoman construct that is missed but the Ottoman power and prestige, the august blaze of the Porte before which knelt kings and lords.
Ultimately the Ottoman Empire was a creation of its own times, which declined and vanished with the same era that created and sustained it, and even with its premature and swift fall, the consequence of its inability to change with the times, it is not a construct many desires the return of, despite much regret over its passing.
Whenever I am reminded of the opinions of my fellow Turks about the fall of the Eternal State, I cannot help but think of the attitude of the last nation to lose a great empire.
Whoever does not miss the Soviet unx has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain.
Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin
奥斯曼帝国在土耳其人的心目中是一个奇怪的结构体。
正如任何一个看到自己从世界上无可争议的超级大国沦落为充其量是一个区域性大国的国家一样，如果声称土耳其和土耳其人对其帝国过去的庄严和威严没有任何怀念之情，那当然是不可能的。
然而，要准确表达问的到底是对过去这个实体的怀念，还是关于是否想要这个已经过去的实体回归。
奥斯曼帝国是一个伟大但停滞不前的结构体，它首先发现自己是一个明显领先于其时代的实体，但随着时间的推移，它又未能做出改变，当终于采取措施来挽救王朝时，又已经为时已晚。然而，即使到了倒塌的最后一天，它也带着某种庄严的威望，更别说它全盛时期震撼世界的力量了，它是七个多世纪以来欧洲和近东的第一个真正的超级大国。对它的逝去感到遗憾是每个土耳其人普遍存在的现象，也是一种怀念之情，但人们怀念的不是奥斯曼帝国的这个结构体，而是奥斯曼帝国的权力和威望，是门庭若市地跪在苏丹面前的国王和领主的庄严。
归根结底，奥斯曼帝国是其自身时代的产物，它与创造和维持它的那个时代一起衰落和消失，即使它过早和迅速地衰落，这是它不能与时俱进的结果，但它并不是许多人渴望回归的结构体，尽管人们对它的逝去感到遗憾。
每当我想起我的土耳其同胞对"永恒之国"衰落的看法时，我不禁想到上一个失去一个伟大帝国的民族的态度：
“不怀念苏联的人没有心，想要他回来的人没脑子。”
弗拉基米尔·弗拉迪米罗维奇·普京

Werner Hermann
Whoever does not miss the Soviet unx has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain.
The same can be said of any great Empire in particular the British Empire. Despite all the vices and ensuing grudges it engendered, the Empire was glorious and had profound impact on the development of its colonies.
But building and especially maintaining an Empire is tremendously expensive.
“不怀念苏联的人没有心，想要他回来的人没脑子。”
任何伟大的帝国，特别是大英帝国，也可以这样说。尽管它产生了各种恶习和随之而来的怨恨，但帝国是光荣的，对其殖民地的发展有着深远的影响。
但是，建立尤其是维持一个帝国的费用是巨大的。

Jay Raman
Empires were built by the sword and built for the benefit of the masters. British empire is a typical example. The resources of the empire made Britain a super power, look at her now without her empire. Colonies like India missed the age of industrial revolution. Britain made the colonies a source of cheap raw materials and a captive market for her industries. When British came to India, India had nearly 20%of world trade, when they left it was 2%. Make your own judgement.
帝国是靠刀剑建立的，是为了主人的利益而建立的。大英帝国就是一个典型的例子。帝国的资源使英国成为超级大国，看看现在没有帝国的英国是什么样。印度等殖民地错过了工业革命的时代。英国让殖民地成为廉价原材料的来源，成为其工业的俘虏市场。当英国人来到印度时，印度有近20%的世界贸易，当他们离开时，印度只有2%。你自己想想。

Larry Friedman
There was another factor in the slow decline of the Ottoman Empire, and that was fratricide. Any sultan who had more than one son could be assured that they would be strangled one by one by their younger brothers in order to inherit the throne. As a result, a building known as The Cage was constructed in Topkapı where the heir apparent could be safe. Unfortunately, this also meant that when the ruling sultan died and the heir ascended the throne, he was completely ignorant of conditions inside the country and out. This produced one terrible sultan after another. As corruption and ignorance grew, the empire crumbled.
奥斯曼帝国的缓慢衰落还有一个因素，那就是自相残杀。任何有一个以上儿子的苏丹都必须保证，为了继承王位，他们会把他们的弟弟们一个一个地扼杀。因此，在托普卡帕建造了一个被称为"笼子"的建筑，在那里，继承人可以得到安全。不幸的是，这也意味着，当执政的苏丹去世，继承人登上王位时，他对国内和国外的情况完全不了解。这就产生了一个又一个可怕的苏丹。随着腐败和无知的累积，帝国崩溃了。

Cem Arslan
The Cage was the result of the fratricide custom being abolished. Not only the heir apparent but all children were kept within, and the succession became seniority instead of primogeniture. Result was, as said, a long string of useless sultans who lacked both the knowledge or wisdom of an elder and the ferocity and vigour of a youth.
笼子是那个自相残杀习俗被废除的结果。不仅是继承人，而是所有的孩子都被关在里面，继承权变成了长辈，而不是长子继承。结果，如前所述，出现了一长串无用的苏丹，他们既缺乏长者的知识或智慧，又缺乏年轻人的凶猛和活力。

Indicus
You know what the map of the Ottoman Empire at the top of your answer looks like? Spilled milk. I'm sure you know what they say about spilled milk.
While the Ottoman Empire was no doubt a glorious era in its heyday, what Ataturk achieved is far more groundbreaking for the generations of Turks yet to come.
你知道你答案上面的奥斯曼帝国地图看起来像什么吗？溢出的牛奶。我相信你知道他们对打翻的牛奶是怎么说的。
虽然奥斯曼帝国在其全盛时期无疑是一个辉煌的时代，但阿塔图尔克（凯末尔）所取得的成就对于尚未到来的几代土耳其人来说更具开创性。

Kozan Soykal
Putin nails it… wow.
普京说得太好了.....哇。

Michal Soukup
He usually does, whether you agree with Mr. Putin, or consider him the worst thing that happen to world since the Attila Hun you kinda have to accept that he is usualy one of the smartest people the room.
他是这样的，无论你是喜欢普京先生，还是认为他是自阿提拉匈人以来世界上发生的最糟糕的事情，你都不得不接受他通常是房间里最聪明的人之一。

Maulana Oraf
South Asians feel most nostalgic about ottoman empire more than Turks themselves in my humble observation.
据我粗浅的观察，南亚人对奥斯曼帝国的怀念甚至多于土耳其人自己。

Sāmapriẏa Basu
Why? Most South Asians hardly know of the Empire. I personally have great admiration for the Ottoman Empire, but I can’t say the same for “most” South Asians.
为什么呢？大多数南亚人几乎不知道这个帝国。我个人对奥斯曼帝国非常钦佩，但我不能说 "大多数"南亚人也是这样。

Yusuf Cinakli
The only colony the ottoman empite ever had was in indonesia/malaya area. To my knowledge, they interacted with the local population and tried to help them. I remember seeing turkish style mosques there and being baffled. Of course, a country like indonesia with a muslim majority and being a previous colony would be intrigued by the idea of a muslim state being so powerful and holding colonies. Especially when they see artifacts left by them. I am Turkish, born and raised in Turkey and know all about Ottoman history apart from our endeavours in the east. I wonder why they don’t teach us about it, it is quite interesting but just brushed off as “we also had naval conflicts with portugal and eventually lost” Yeah, ok, how?
奥斯曼帝国唯一的殖民地是在印度尼西亚/马来亚地区。据我所知，他们与当地居民进行了交流，并试图帮助他们。我记得我在那里看到了土耳其风格的清真寺，当时还感到很困惑。当然，像印度尼西亚这样一个穆斯林占多数并且是以前的殖民地的国家，会对一个穆斯林国家如此强大并拥有殖民地的想法感到好奇。特别是当他们看到他们留下的文物时。我是土耳其人，在土耳其出生和长大，我对奥斯曼历史了如指掌--除了我们在东方的努力。我想知道为什么他们不教我们这部分历史，这明明很有趣，但却被刷掉了，是因为"我们曾与葡萄牙发生了海上冲突，并最终输掉了"吗，是的，好吧，这又如何？

Syed Adeel Hussain
Were Somalia, Djibouti, Eritrea, Bahrain, Qatar, OMAN and UAE not part of the Ottoman Empire?
索马里、吉布提、厄立特里亚、巴林、卡塔尔、阿曼和阿联酋不是奥斯曼帝国的一部分吗？

Rajko Begaj
Great answer. :)
I love the Ottoman empire as much as I hate it. It's like being in love with a very abusive person. You finally kill the bastard and then kiss his picture and mourn.
很好的答案。:)
我对奥斯曼帝国既爱又恨。这就像爱上了一个非常暴虐的人。你终于杀了那个混蛋，然后亲吻他的照片并哀悼。

Matthew Reed
While it cannot be denied that the Ottoman Empire was a regional powerhouse and certainly feared by many of its neighbors it is hard to say they were ever an undisputed world superpower. Even if one were to say they were a superpower they really didn't except direct expansion have significant influence over much of the world let alone dominance. Their attempts at a navy in the Indian Ocean for example where what was supposed to be a superpower facing the small country of Portugal the Ottomans lost their entire navy and any possible further interests in India. Even at the height of their power the empire was confronted and defeated numerous times in their own region which while also winning many with how much they were challenged and lost it's hard to see how they can be an undisputed world superpower with how often they were defeated and challenged on the homefront.
It's definitely not to say the ottomans were not very strong in their time, but when you speak of undisputed world superpowers the list is very very short. I would say Britain, The mongol Empire , the US, and possibly Spain all had their spot as the world superpower at a time or another, but undisputed I would say you'd also have to take Spain, China, and the mongol Empire off the list.
虽然不能否认奥斯曼帝国是一个地区强国，当然也被许多邻国所惧怕，但很难说他们曾经是一个无可争议的世界超级大国。即使说他们是一个超级大国，除了直接的领土扩张外，他们也没有对世界大部分地区产生重大影响，更不用说主导地位了。例如，他们在印度洋建立海军的尝试，面对葡萄牙这个小国，奥斯曼人失去了他们的全部海军和在印度的任何可能的进一步利益。即使在他们权力的巅峰时期，帝国也在自己的地区被无数次对抗和击败，虽然他们也赢得了许多挑战和失败，但很难看出他们如何能成为一个无可争议的世界超级大国，因为他们在国内经常被击败和挑战。
这绝对不是说奥斯曼人在他们的时代不是很强大，但当你谈到无可争议的世界超级大国时，名单上的人非常非常少。我想说英国、蒙古帝国、美国，可能还有西班牙都曾在某一时期成为了世界超级大国，但要做到无可争议，你还得把西班牙、中国和蒙古帝国从名单上剔除。

Cem Arslan
Regarding India, you are kind of wrong about it. Let alone losing their entire fleet, Ottomans barely cared about India. The only significant expedition there did not even fight a single engagement with Portuguese ships, after which the Empire plainly stopped caring about Indian Ocean. Out of the remaining ‘expeditions’ there were three naval battles versus the Portuguese and two were minor Ottoman victories while outnumbered and the third was a very narrow Portuguese victory.
The lack of interest and funding for the Indian Fleet following the first expedition was what killed the Ottoman forces there. In the ten years between the first and second expedition combat capable ship count fell from 90 to 30.
关于印度，你的看法有点错误。不要说失去他们的整个舰队，奥斯曼人其实几乎不关心印度。唯一一次重要的远征，甚至没有与葡萄牙船只进行过一次交战，之后帝国显然不再关心印度洋。在剩下的"远征"中，有三场与葡萄牙人的海战，其中两场是奥斯曼帝国在寡不敌众的情况下取得的小胜，第三场是葡萄牙人以非常微弱的优势获胜。
第一次远征后，对印度洋舰队缺乏兴趣和资金，这也是导致奥斯曼帝国军队在那里死亡的原因。在第一次和第二次远征之间的十年里，有战斗力的船只数量从90艘下降到30艘。

Matthew Reed
There were four expeditions by the Ottoman Empire between 1538 & 1554 with the empire at the height of its power under Kanunî Sultan Süleyman. The goal of the four expeditions was to check the Portuguese domination and assisting Selim, the ruler of Gujerat were both not achieved. The aftermath after just 16 years left the ottomans without any of the original 90 ships, a Portuguese allied ruler in place of their former ally, and the Portuguese still holding their their dominance of the ocean. There were minor gains by land of the ottomans, but the actual goals were never achieved and they in the end conceded dominance of the ocean to a much less populated, wealthy, and industrialized nation than their own.
I'm not Portuguese or Turkish so I really don't have a bias for either, but it's hard to see for me how the Ottomans could really say this was anything but a defeat for themselves.
奥斯曼帝国在1538年至1554年期间进行了四次远征，当时帝国在卡努尼-苏莱曼苏丹的领导下处于权力的顶峰。这四次远征的目的是为了遏制葡萄牙的统治，并协助古吉拉特的统治者塞利姆，但这两个目标都没有实现。仅仅16年后的结果是，奥斯曼人失去了原来的90艘船，一个葡萄牙的盟友统治者取代了他们以前的盟友，而葡萄牙人仍然保持着他们在海洋上的统治地位。奥托曼人在陆地上有一些小的收获，但实际的目标从未实现，他们最终将海洋的主导权让给了一个人口、财富和工业化程度远低于自己的国家。
我不是葡萄牙人，也不是土耳其人，所以我对两者都没有偏见，但我很难看出奥斯曼人怎么能说这是他们自己的失败。

Armando Garza
Curious question… are you ethnically Turk or Turk of Greek descent?
奇怪的问题……你是土耳其人还是希腊血统的土耳其人？

Rouham Yamout
it is the destiny of all empires, of all superpowers. one day they decline, or evolve into a new civilization. I was raised in the state that was vassal to the ottoman empire, and have been raised with the hate of the ottomans. but when i read the history, i understood that the ottoman empire added a lot to the human civilization. It was the first multi cultural and multi religious state, and they reached such a harmony between different ethnicities and faiths, that we till now could not recover anywhere in the world. Well their methods of governance were not very fair, they accessed the world through violence, wars and deprivation, but those were the norms in their time. now they are gone, but we have to retain lessons of tolerance, intelligence in governing, strong social organization, and profound attachment to human values.
这是所有帝国、所有超级大国的命运。有一天他们会衰落，或者演变为新的文明。我是在奥斯曼帝国的附庸国长大的，从小就对奥斯曼人怀恨在心。但当我阅读历史时，我明白奥斯曼帝国为人类文明增添了很多东西。它是第一个多文化和多宗教的国家，他们在不同的民族和信仰之间达到了如此的和谐，而我们至今在世界任何地方都无法恢复。他们的治理方法不是很公平，他们通过暴力、战争和掠夺进入世界，但这是他们那个时代的规范。现在他们已经不在了，但我们必须保留宽容、治理的智慧、强大的社会组织和对人类价值的深刻重视等方面的教训。

Steve Epps
The Ottoman Empire never had the potential to evolve into a modern multi-ethnic, multi-lingual federal state. Illiteracy, Just farming, non-homogenous, siding with the Germans triggered the empire’s disintegration. The Ottomans were a mistake like Trump’s presidency. Today the Turks -think- they can expand in a similar fashion, unfortunately…like the Germans,.. they never learn.
奥斯曼帝国从来没有发展成为一个现代多民族、多语言的联邦国家的潜力。文盲、只重视农业、非同质化、与德国人站在一起引发了帝国的解体。奥斯曼人是一个错误，就像特朗普的总统任期。今天的土耳其人还“认为”他们可以以类似的方式扩张，不幸的是......像德国人一样......他们从来没学会。

Murat Sahin
, History freak
I will tell you in three very short paragrahps how the Turk feels about the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
Keep in mind, I am a 21 year old student born and living in the Netherlands. My parents have moved here 22 years ago. Bear with me.
Me (as in the young generation of Turks):
No I do not regret the fall of the O.E. Why yes ofcourse I love the history of my country and the culture we have, but lets face it, the O.E. was in decline ever since the West adopted democracy. So I am proud that we Turks have a nation built in the image of the West. Democracy is the way to go. Period.
My parents (as in the older generation):
Yes they regret it very much. My dad never went to high school. So he is easily supceptible to the propaganda of Erdogan's AKP. Now he hates Ataturk for "bringing down the O.E." My mom finished high school in the Netherlands and she was originally a nationalist/socialist. So is her family, but since there are no leaders who can oppose Erdogan, she voted for AKP, because she thinks thats the best option, for now. And yes, she also regrets the fall of the O.E., but she doesn't hate Ataturk.
So you can see a pattern here. The younger, better educated Turks tend to embrace the values of a good old republic and revere Ataturk for his reforms that have westernized Turkey. They are proud of it, so am I. The older generation, educated or not, tend to have some regrets regarding the fall of the OE.
我将用三个非常简短的段落告诉你，土耳其人对奥斯曼帝国的灭亡有何感受。
请记住，我是一个21岁的学生，出生并生活在荷兰。我的父母22年前搬到这里。请耐心听我说。
我（指年轻一代的土耳其人）：
不，我不可惜奥斯曼帝国的衰落。当然，我爱我的国家的历史和我们的文化，但让我们面对现实吧，自从西方国家采用民主制度后，奥斯曼帝国就开始衰落了。所以我为我们土耳其人有一个按照西方的形象建立的国家而感到自豪。民主是必经之路。句号。
我的父母（指老一辈人）：
是的，他们非常惋惜。我爸爸没有上过高中。所以他很容易被埃尔多安的AKP（正义与发展党）的宣传所感染。现在他憎恨阿塔图尔克，因为他"搞垮了奥斯曼帝国"。我妈妈在荷兰读完了高中，她原本是一个民族主义者/社会主义者。她的家人也是如此，但由于没有可以反对埃尔多安的领导人，她投票给了AKP，因为她认为这是最好的选择，就目前而言。是的，她也对奥斯曼的垮台感到遗憾，但她并不恨阿塔图尔克。
所以你可以在这里看到一个模式。年轻的、受教育程度较高的土耳其人倾向于接受良好的旧共和国的价值观，并崇尚阿塔图尔克的改革，因为他的改革使土耳其西化了。他们为此感到自豪，我也是。老一辈的人，无论是否受过教育，都倾向于对奥斯曼的衰落有一些遗憾。

Jon Kime
Ataturk was one of those rare men who come along at just the right time. Turkey would be a far different country without him. The O.E. had a long glorious run but no empire lasts forever, lucky for Turkey Ataturk took control when he did and started them on the road to become the modern nation they are today. Democracies are always messy, but Imagine what things would look like today with all of their unstable neighbors without a strong army, NATO membership, and a modern manufacturing sector.
No nation can return to a so called golden era. it's impossible.
阿塔图尔克是那种恰逢其时的罕见人物之一。没有他，土耳其将是一个截然不同的国家。奥斯曼曾有过长期的辉煌，但没有一个帝国是永存的，对土耳其来说，幸运的是阿塔图尔克的出现控制了局面，使他们开始走上了成为今天的现代国家的道路。民主国家总是混乱的，但想象一下，如果没有强大的军队、北约成员资格和现代制造业，今天土耳其的情况会是什么样子，他们有这么多不稳定的邻国。
没有一个国家能回到所谓的黄金时代，这是不可能的。

Jean-Rene Bouvier
Thanks for the answer: I learnt something here, and I can relate to it and correlate with what my connections in Turkey tell me.
I observed the same generational divide within my Turkish friends, with a young generation sold on freedom and democratic values and a "more mature" generation blinded by Erdogan having restored national pride and eliminated corrupt political cronyism. What Erdogan did - get rid of plethoric bureaucracy and focus investment on infrastructure - is the typical success recipe of dictators; this is not bad in itself, on the contrary, and I wish democratic leaders would do the same. Only it takes guts and strong will. And then, when everybody is happy with the results, Erdogan and the likes can install their authoritarian regime and reestablish cronyism with "legitimate" support from the masses. Democratic leaders have only themselves and their lack of courage for reform to blame.
谢谢你的回答。我在这里学到了一些东西，我可以理解，并且与我对与土耳其的关系告诉我的东西关联起来。
我观察到在我的土耳其朋友中也有同样的代沟，年轻一代被自由和民主价值所吸引，而"更成熟"的一代被埃尔多安恢复民族自豪感和消除腐败的政治裙带关系所蒙蔽。埃尔多安所做的--摆脱冗余的官僚机构，将投资集中在基础设施上--是典型的独裁者的成功秘诀；这本身并不坏，相反，我希望民主领导人也能这样做。只是这需要胆量和坚强的意志。然后，当所有人都对结果感到满意时，埃尔多安等人就可以在群众的"合法"支持下建立他们的独裁政权，重新建立裙带关系。对此民主党领导人只能怪自己和他们缺乏改革的勇气。

Basil Keilani
The Ottoman Empire fell in 1923, but it could have easily fallen in 1823 if Western Europe wanted it. That doesn’t mean the Ottoman Empire would not have put up a good fight at that time. It would have, but Western Europe was more advanced by then. They kept the Ottoman Empire there to some extent because it was convenient. So many Turks romanticize the Ottoman Empire and regret its fall, but, the reality is, before the republic people did not have much of an opportunity to get an education and advance economically. And women had a very limited role in society.
奥斯曼帝国在1923年灭亡，但如果西欧愿意，它在1823年就可以被轻易灭亡。这并不意味着奥斯曼帝国在那个时候无法组织一场良好的战斗。它本来是可以的，只是西欧那时已经更先进了。他们在某种程度上保留了奥斯曼帝国，因为留下它更有好处。因此，许多土耳其人把奥斯曼帝国浪漫化，并为它的衰落感到遗憾，但现实是，在共和国之前，人们没有太多的机会获得教育和经济发展。而妇女在社会中的作用也非常有限。

Ivan Bangov
Well, how can Turkish regret about the fall of a feudal empire. All feudal empires have gone. To regret about Russian, Austria-Hungarian, German empires is stupid too. We saw what happened with the Third German empire for new 1000 years of Hitler. Russians regret about USSR (not only Russians) because their economical situation was better at USSR times.The other Balkan, and not Balkan countries around Ottoman empire which were victims of it do not share such an admire. It had been a cruel empire which was а serious obstacle for the cultural and economic development of the whole region. The lag of all countries in the region was direct consequence to its late feudal system. Really Ataturk was a great man for Turkey in his efforts to modernize it.
土耳其人怎么会对一个封建帝国的衰落感到遗憾呢。所有的封建帝国都已经消失了。对俄罗斯帝国、奥匈帝国、德意志帝国的消失感到遗憾也是愚蠢的。我们看到在希特勒的新千年里，德意志第三帝国发生了什么。俄罗斯人对苏联感到遗憾（不仅仅是俄罗斯人），因为他们的经济状况在苏联时期比较好。其他巴尔干国家，以及奥斯曼帝国周围的非巴尔干国家都是奥斯曼帝国的受害者，他们对奥斯曼并没有这样的崇拜。它是一个残酷的帝国，对整个地区的文化和经济发展构成了严重障碍。该地区所有国家的落后是其晚期封建制度的直接后果。阿塔图尔克确实是一个伟大的人，他为土耳其的现代化做出了努力。